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Poll

Do you currently support an increase in our annual dues?

YES
NO
NOT SURE - COMMENT WHY NOT SURE

Author Topic: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?  (Read 2184 times)

Offline amadorcomm

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2020, 09:37:30 PM »


I'm on the fence on this one.

I guess the bottom line is I'm personally okay with paying more, if we GET more, and don't have to wait years to get it.

^^^ These are my sentiments. As for seniors, what percentage are they of the club. Can anything be done to accommodate them?

Offline Phillip

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2020, 12:11:45 AM »
I have to be perfectly honest - I'm not crazy about the idea. I suppose I look at it in terms of equity. The annual members have already paid a significant amount, especially when one considers the initiation fee, and at $240 a year we're already shouldering most of the burden for club improvements. Limited members with a mere $30 increase will have the benefit of a covered line all weekend long, and with no range fees, will easily and quickly recover their costs.

Charging the annual members 25% more does not necessarily translate into a better experience. Yes, the promise of shade for some of the bays sounds appealing, but when will that happen? And practically speaking, most annual members are working stiffs and show up on the weekends anyway. And if they arrive before any of the discipline matches are over, they're stuck at the main range - just like the limited members. This has happened to me on many occasions.

Can I afford the increase? Of course I can, easily, but the whole thing kind of rubs me the wrong way. Also, knowing that the range is "in good financial condition" does not excite in me a lust to contribute to the club's pecuniary well being.

And I might add that the $20k estimate to repair the clubhouse seems awfully high, and is it worth another $20k to put decomposed asphalt on the roads? Might we simply manage with what we already have?


Offline Ronald Kain

Re: Dues
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2020, 09:16:28 AM »
Agree the dues are to high and should be rolled back to $180.00. Slow down on range upgrades and hiring staff, some members are going through hard times.

Offline Kdsd731

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2020, 09:22:11 AM »
I personally am not a fan of the increase.  I'm still waiting to see this shotgun range open which closed right when I joined way back when.  I feel like we are in good financial standing already to start doing the upgrades. I vote no.

Offline zim

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2020, 11:09:17 AM »
As others have stated, the dues are already quite high and I am not in favor of another rate hike. I am quite content with the way the club is now and for the money would not be in favor of the new projects proposed. There are a number of projects already on the books that past rate increases we’re supposed to cover and have yet to be completed, such as the shotgun range. I suggest we work within our means and accomplish what we can over time with the money we currently collect.

Offline jimbarger

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2020, 01:55:47 PM »
Hello,

I have been a full member since 2013, right after the fee increase for a full member to $240.00.  At that time, we have had some difficulties due to the lawsuit, but I have also seen vast improvements to the range, especially over the last few years.  I understand that improvements are very costly now.  I also understand that over the last 8 years, an increase in dues of 33% ($240 to $320) doubles the average US inflation rate for that time. 

I suggest that certain improvements that would really help the range and most members be reviewed and prioritized, on a year to year basis.  A suggestion would be to finish the shade structures for all the bays first, as that would be most beneficial to most full members.  Additional improvements at the main range area would also be very beneficial to all members including limited.

Also, I'd suggest that each improvement be closely reviewed.  An example is spending $120K for (4) restrooms seems quite high, but I'll be the first to say I'm not a restroom builder.  Maybe that is what they cost. But would the standard "port a potties" be a better more cost effective option over the long haul?

As another member mentioned and I agree, spending $7 more a month would not be a big hardship for me personally.  Maybe it will make me want to go to the range more often (I hope).

Anyway, I will put in a vote as note sure at this time, although it would not take a lot to switch to a yes vote if the increase is apparent that it will go only to improvements, with schedules and member concensus as to what improvements are most important and most beneficial to the majority.

Just my 2-cents worth

Thanks for allowing me to comment, and thanks to all the officers and other volunteers that make this range great!!

Jim

Jim

Offline bcoldman

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2020, 05:53:23 PM »
 This increase is too much. It will hurt seniors and low income people. As a limited member I believe that a lot of or maybe most limited members are "limited" because they can't afford to be a full member. And I believe that most limited members would love to be a full member if they could afford it. Because the range is located in a nice area and it is a very nice place to shoot. Yes improvements might be slow but maybe we just need more people to volunteer and help 7 days a week.

Offline Longshot ziz

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2020, 08:42:42 PM »
I am against the steep rate hike all at once. While i have seen many things slightly improve over the years I have yet to see the shotgun range open, the long range pads usable on a regular basis and half the time only half the bays are open because of one reason or another. We have a beautiful range already, lets keep it maintained and not spend more on projects that aren't going to be finished this centry. Also, as a disabled veteran on a limited income and a single income family I enjoy bringing my kids to the range and teaching them about our freedoms and the 2nd amendment. I feel that this rate hike (which is also paid around the holiday season) would hurt many people like myself and my family.

Offline hragheb

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2020, 03:22:47 PM »
I am a new limited member, I joined in January 2020. I do tactical pistol training and long range rifle shooting so most of the time I am shooting at private properties between Riverside and San Diego and I go to public/membership ranges to practice, test new equipment or have a fun day with the family.

I met a member at a training and he told me that WEGC has a 300 yard rifle range that will open soon and that was the reason I signed up and was disappointed to find out that this is limited to full members only.

I ended up using the 200 yard range at lytle creek and only visited WEGC once since I signed to check the place out.

My suggestion is to open up some of the activities that are limited to full members at a higher rate. As an example, I will pay $20 to use the 300 yard range and will do my best to come every weekend and bring my family. When I compare that to the $600 I have to pay to cover 2 days of shooting targets up to 1000 yards its a great deal.

Offering a service at a high rate is better than increasing dues across the board for everyone. That's my opinion 

Thanks,

Hazem

Offline steve77

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2020, 08:09:29 PM »
Range FEE increase - big NO:   The projects are vague at best, and at worst most aren't worth it.

Next we will have to manage the toilets[1], lighting[6] and road erosion[8] if approved.
Lets keep this simple folks - this isn't some bougie country club.
The range in good financial standing why put ourselves in debt - the only real worth while project is maybe #3.
But do we really NEED any of the proposed things - NO!


1. Four self contained vault toilets budgeted at $120,000
(outhouses the same as vault toilets , but with vault toilets maintenance will go up as they will need to be pumped )

2. Raise for Range Employees budgeted at $13,000 - $15,000
(what employees ?)

3. Covers for Bays 12, 13, 14, 15 budgeted at $20,000
(maybe )

4. Finish Main Range Drainage budgeted at $100,000
(ive been a member since 2001 or so and never understood what this was for)

5. Add Pistol Bays to New Upper Area budgeted at $20,000 - $30,000
(will they be completed before the year 2100 ?)

6. Permanent night lights for main range budgeted at $10,000+
NO - if you must get solar lights - that are cheap and replaceable - we all know some yahoo will shoot out the bulbs.
Also who really shoots at night (Ive done it with spotlight maybe twice since 2001) its just not worth it as next we'll have to get generators and gas.. and gas storage and....a host of environmental and potential fire-hazard issues - this isn't a homestead & we dont need permanent lights.

7. Repairs to the Clubhouse budgeted at $20,000
Uh just NO!

8. Decomposed Asphalt on roads budgeted at $20,000
Why? So we can pay for road maintenance next ? - No thanks!. More wasted $ and environmental issues


Also as others have noted the CURRENT rate for full members was supposed to be temporary...


« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 08:17:43 PM by steve77 »

Offline only_milsurp

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 02:23:57 PM »
I am against the price increase. I have been a member since 2011 and seen lots of improvements but also I don't seen the gain for my newly requested $. I usually only come a couple times a year with my family. When the winter comes, the range is not accessible to low profile vehicles and I know this and accept it as it was known at the time of joining. I keep my membership to support the club and I know that in the future I will be going more often as my kids get older. I see the current rate of improvement is good and the financials seem to be good for the club too. I too would like to see the shotgun range finished before starting other projects. I don't see the need for all the improvements stated in the post and it seems that most of them are for the larger groups that come (matches, classes, etc.):

1. Four self contained vault toilets budgeted at $120,000
These have maintenance too. Instead of the weekly pumping and cleaning, you will have yearly or semiannual pumping plus they will still need to be cleaned by someone. Instead of the pumper company doing it, range staff would need to do the cleaning leading to more salary. Ultimately these are nice, but we are not a campsite that has people there everyday. Most people visit on the weekends or for events.

2. Raise for Range Employees budgeted at $13,000 - $15,000
On the fence on this. Range staff is much improved from when I joined. No idea what they make or if their duties result in need for raises. But again, if this staff is there on weekends mostly for the main range, make the people (limited members) that use their services pay for them.

3. Covers for Bays 12, 13, 14, 15 budgeted at $20,000
Shade is nice. However most of the areas I have don't have shade where I would want it. I usually either bring an easy up or wear a hat. For $80 I could buy and easy-up each year and still have the shelter for other things.

4. Finish Main Range Drainage budgeted at $100,000
I can't remember the last time I shot at the main range. I don't use it and again, if this is for LTD members, increase their dues.

5. Add Pistol Bays to New Upper Area budgeted at $20,000 - $30,000
Never used any of the pistol bays.

6. Permanent night lights for main range budgeted at $10,000+
Lights are nice but not needed. I would think the maintenance and upkeep would be too much, but I'm on the fence on this one merely for security.

7. Repairs to the Clubhouse budgeted at $20,000
Only been here for 2 meetings. Not sure what the repairs are for but would think these could be taken care of in the operating budget for the club.

8. Decomposed Asphalt on roads budgeted at $20,000
Nope. Every time you spend money on the roads, you're guaranteeing a wet winter that will wash it all away. Again, most of the time the club isn't accessible to me due to the creek during winter so why spend the $ on DG for the roads.

Ultimately I think if a section of the club wants some improvement (main range, disciplines, matches, long range, etc.) then they should propose the work, increase their fees temporarily and maybe have the club match the raised funds. Ultimately I think there are a lot of people like me that don't go every weekend for this or that reason and just want a place to go shoot with their family and friends. Most of these improvements don't make that experience much better. I know several people like me that have left the club and just go out to the desert as they find it cheaper to do so. I like the proximity of the range and the offerings of different things to get into if I ever get more time.

Offline SAM

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2020, 04:39:26 PM »
The members must DEMAND an independent AUDIT of the WEGC accounting bookkeeping.  Previous unexplained discrepancies in the financial report and now this "pay before you go" dues increase proposal from the Treasurer indicate a lack of control and/or competence in the financials for our club.  The proposed projects are mostly ill conceived and lack details, either physical, logistical, or financial.  This sounds like "Tax and Spend" so popular with some politicians.  DON'T allow this to go to a vote without an AUDIT.

Offline davewatson

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2020, 07:48:05 PM »
Those who oppose dues increases should consider that we have a waiting list hundreds long. That’s demand. Ranges are scarce in our area. That’s supply. Supply and demand is a fundamental law of nature, like gravity making bullets drop. Everything costs more, so will shooting costs. Some posts here have criticized specific projects and a few even challenge management integrity with calls for audits. Audits are important safeguards, for members and management, and should be accomplished routinely, but we shouldn’t expect they will determine whether the club Is doing things exactly as we individually prefer. The books and projects seem fairly open and above board, so the criticism seems to come down to preferences. My preference would be to bulldoze the main range and bays and make one humongous rifle range. But I recognize some members want to do other things, most of which I actually enjoy too. I would like to suggest we develop and maintain a master plan showing objectives and projects necessary to meet those objectives. Then the members would have clearer understanding of the purpose and value of jointly agreed projects to pursue jointly agreed club vision. Those who disagree could run for office or build another range more to their liking. But costs will go up, and so will dues.

Offline Bogey3

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2020, 12:10:32 AM »
Respectfully,

I've been coming to this range for close to 15 years now mostly as a guest and have recently become a full member. The short version is that overall my opinion of the dues increase is a No vote.

The range has seen some nice improvements in regards to the new upper area (albeit the progress has been painfully slow especially in regards to the shotgun range). It is nice to see the improvements finally coming close to fruition. However, it is my understanding that the club is in good financial standing with a surplus of savings for future and ongoing projects. First and foremost I would "vote" or request that improvements be made as funds are available. Call me old fashioned, but living within your means and only spending what you can afford makes the most sense to me.

We live in California, and I'm pretty sure most of us pay high taxes already, and I'm even more sure that most of us can agree that our state keeps promising all kinds of projects/road repairs (from the constant gas tax increases) high speed trains to nowhere etc and borrowing against our future to do, or not actually do these things that they promise. I'm fairly tired of these huge bloated budgets for projects that do not come to fruition in California and I do not want the same practices to become the "norm" at our beloved range.

If we are in the good financial standing that we say we are, (and I believe that we are) then appropriate the already available funds to the projects deemed the most important by the members and accomplish those projects in a timely manner and in fewer numbers so the progress is more visible. The shotgun range project has been a nightmare for many of us members for years and years now. I would rather see fewer realistic and widely accepted projects be completed efficiently than grandiose full sweeping plans that take a decade to complete and demand or encourage membership increases.

Many of us have been a part of this range for many-many years. With hindsight I believe most members would agree that the progress of improvements over the aforementioned years at times has been elongated but they have been mostly steady, reasonable and most importantly financially responsible and didn't require going into debt or massive increases in membership dues. Please keep it that way.

Additionally, as so many before me have already said, right now is a HORRIBLE time to demand more money from members given the hardships that COVID and the economy has created for so many. Not to mention the elderly or others on tight fixed incomes. Right now is a poorly thought out time to begin even proposing increases.

---Of the proposed projects mentioned, I believe the shades over the remaining bays is the least financially burdensome with the highest amount of expedient positive effects to the full members. I believe that should be a priority if approved.

---After that, I will relent to the engineers who know more about the on-goings of drainage within our range, and if they believe major problems or damage could occur without the additional/completed drainage on the main range, then that should also be a priority as to protect ourselves from future expenses due to lack of planning and preparation.

---Personally, the porta potties work just fine for me. They never have been a pleasant thing in this world but they get the job done and are an acceptable and reasonable expense to keep them running. At ANY time if the members deem it necessary to build more permanent restrooms then we can do so when that becomes an apparent majority voted "must have". I myself have never spoken to any members longing for porcelain thrones fit for a king at the range.

---The lighting... As some members have mentioned in other discussions, we do seem to have a problem with "tweakers" and apparent homeless people that tend to roam our property at night. Of the ones I have seen myself, they tend to appear to be on drugs or at the very least not right in their minds. This is something that should be looked into more closely for safety and liability reasons, and lighting throughout the range even if it was limited could be very beneficial.

Obviously, the logistics for a project like this could easily get out of hand fast, but possibly more reasonable steps could be taken such as motion activated lighting that was solar powered in various planned locations throughout the property. As for lighting the main range: How many people are shooting or wanting to shoot at the main range at night? Do we even have an idea? If there is a large portion of the membership that would find this useful then I would be open to proposals and more details once again, if approved.

As for the rest of the proposals listed I am against the changes for now. Finish up the projects that have been promised already and THEN we can begin discussion on new projects.

Somewhere into the future adding pistol bays up top would be cool but I feel that should come much later.

I know this has been long winded so I apologize. My final concern is with the fees for the new shotgun range. Many of us have been waiting for it to reopen or be rebuilt since it was shut down many years ago. I am an avid shot-gunner and I have shot clays at most of the available ranges in the nearby area. I just do not understand why we will be charged in the ballpark of $9 per game as members of a club where we are already paying dues. I can go to almost any shotgun range and pay approximately that much and sometimes less, including Redlands, Prado, Triple B etc. And all that without paying membership dues. Why as paying members are we going to be charged so much for a round of clay shooting? Granted, it was many years back, but it used to be $5/game at West End. I understand that we had a volunteer running the range, but with the limited days it will be open, there are no volunteers in the whole club that are willing to do it? I sure bet we could find some especially when they find out they can shoot their games for free.

With that all being said about the shotgun range and the fees involved, I personally am even more opposed to membership increases. I have had to go without the use of the shotgun range at West End for many years and now I feel as if I am going to be taxed to finally use it again. In a sense, my and any other shot-gunner's dues are already increasing.

For example, I used to shoot 4-5 games of skeet or trap per week at our previous rate of $5 a game. If I continued that pattern now at $9/ game my dues will have effectively increased annually by $832-$1040. Add another $80 to my membership dues on top of that? No thanks. Any avid shot-gunner in the club should be able resonate with my concerns.

I vote No on the membership increases. Live within our means. Make slow and steady, visible, accountable and reasonable progress.

Thank you to any and all who read my entire post and thank you for your consideration.

Offline devin1955

Re: Are you aware of a plan to increase our current club dues?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2020, 10:58:44 AM »
I think Bogey3's message above is "spot on". I used to be on the fence on this, I've changed my mind, I feel a dues increase is NOT appropriate at this time.
--
Don Evinger, member# 6007
We have enough youth, what we need is a fountain of smart!

 

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